Tides of War in Phoenix

[Gobbla]

I like the list.  It would have been a pretty decent mid-version 6 army, except that it looks like a 2000 pt. army, but costs 2250 pts.  The list has no shooting, negligible magic, and is vulnerable to any psychology effects.  It comps well in this tournament, but it had the lowest Battle Score (no surprise) and placed one position higher than Kurt because of his Baby Killer comp score (oh, those Skinks!) and Kurt’s notoriously low sportsmanship.  About what one would expect from an obsolete army.

And, I didn’t go to the tournament, and I haven’t played in a tournament in years.  I’m also just not that into WFB anymore, version 7 is suckish, IMHO.  And, I don’t contribute much to the forum anymore.  Mostly because I don’t like having to add a bunch of caveats to my posts, since everyone already knows who I am.

[JohnHwangCC]

Here is Doc Tobin's list:
 

cheapo General
 mounted Captain
 naked Paymaster
 Scroll Caddy
 
8 Heavy Cavalry FC
 
26 Pikemen FC w/ War Banner
23 Pikemen FC
23 Pikemen FC
 
6 Light Cavalry 
6 Light Cavalry
 
9 shield Duellists
10 xhw Duellists
 
2 O&G Giants

How do you like this list?

I'm guessing by most of your comments you might not have a good time at our tournament.

But you never know.....

I think it's a *very* weak list - quite possibly the weakest DoW list one can take:
- No Magic,
- Minimal Magic defense,
- no Shooting
- huge numbers of unmodified Ld7 running around
- big blocks of weak & expensive WS3 S3 Pikes

And surprise, surprise, it got the absolute worst Battle score of any army at the event.

If I had to bring that sort of army to play, for the pleasure of being my opponent's punching bag, no, I'm not going to attend. 

You see, if I'm attending, I want a sporting chance to finish with a 0.500 (2-2-1 for 5 games) for the day.  If it looks like I'd be lucky to break .200, no, that won't work.

[Dave_Fay]

I played Tobin and we had a great time.

I went to the tournament with my only painted Army BOC for a couple of main reasons.
1. My Fiancee's family lives in Phoenix
2. My Good friend Pat lives in Phoenix
3. Ian was nice enough to invite us and other San Diegans were going.
4. It was good vs. evil and knowing that i wouldn't have to fight Demons, VC's, and Dark Elfs was reason enough
5. My normal RTT list would get a High Comp
6. Provide incentive for me to finish painting and stop borrowing someone else's chariots.

Here's how the tourney went for me.

Spent Thursday-Friday painting my ass off with no sleep.  Painted on the Drive over, recruited Fiancee and future mother in law to put black base coat on bases.  Painted on drive to store, painted in the store before tourney finished at 10:00ish am on Sat.

Saw lots of pretty armies and the locals were nice.  I was surprised to see Quentin show up with a similar themed BoC army (He took 2 extra chariots, a Shaggoth and smaller herds)

The first two rounds were paired by Comp which was a nice surprise since i scored a 58

Round 1. vs Ryan Aoto's Ogres.  Mission escorts
I've never fought ogre's before and Ryan was great enough to give me a quick overview.  I should have paid more attention because the game was a slugfest.  I never got a charge off with a single chariot and his prominence of str 7 made quick work of them.  His better maneavring and postitons allowed him to get most of the charges off and kill lots of Mino's early on. This being an Escort mission i committed my herds to one flank with the escorts and spent 3 turns running the off to the other side gaining an extra 450 vp's.  I killed one of Ryans and he only managed to get two off.  His Generals with the Tenderizor made quite work of my DoomBull and His unit.  My only saving grace was the three herds now coming in from his Rear after the escort drop off and cleaning up.
Ended 16 4

Round 2. vs Tobin's DOW. Mission Pitched Battle
Again another great person to play against, we talked Beer, gaming communities and the history of the Game.  Tobin was delighted to see that DoW were aloud at the tourney and brought a Comp friendly list.  Again an Army that i've never played against and had no clue to what they did. Tobin game me the run down and looking at all the pike units my brain registered "High Elfs".  I deployed my units in order of Fast to slow and I won the roll for first turn.  I marched all my units forming a nice sweeping arc getting ready for the turn 3 charge.  Tobin's comment to this was "Well, you certainly aren't shy" with a grin on his face.  Tobin's movement phase was very calculated and precise, my army being frenzy he tried to set up bait to expose my flanks and crash me into forests.  I took the bait charged in and wiped out entire units, he mentions that i have to overrun and due to blood greed i just site there.  This surprised him since his friend who also plays mino's has always made an overrun move.  This set it up so instead of being out of position i was ready to punch through.  The dice were not with Tobin for his psychology tests, one especially for his knights which would have flanked my entire army.  His pikemen unit with the BSB and general did manage to punch through a unit of mino's over run into a chariot and make it to my table edge.  The following turns were pretty bloody,  pretty much tabled Tobin only losing a few units and had all the table quarters.
Ended 20 0

Round 3 vs Chris Hines Mission Kill the general no magic, 2 chariot, 2 dragon prince and lots of spearman army.
At this point in the day i was pretty fatigued and running on empty.  Chris is another fun opponet, we had the same philosophy in the fact we can't roll dice and on day 2 we even showed up with the same t-shirt http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/dicearetryingtokillme.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/gamer/9d0b/zoom/&usg=__I3zQIBoneIB45T2_u8alMUdG-38=&h=520&w=400&sz=38&hl=en&start=2&sig2=7IHKJPbApvaXO2x8pKamYA&um=1&tbnid=RKi1wmnGDi-XgM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthe%2Bdice%2Bare%2Btrying%2Bto%2Bkill%2Bme%2Bt%2Bshirt%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DNnu%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=1I_LSrKNNIKutgP845CZAQ.  This was the second time for me playing the new elf's are expensive and if you kill all the troops you would still draw based on point cost of the characters.  Chris was great and showed my the correct way of doing simultaneous charges on the same facing.  He was pretty season in fighting BoC and new what todo, it was a slugfest of wierd charges, units facing the wrong way and me being tired and making mistakes.  I did kill his general.
Ended 9 11

The end of day one I met with the in-law's and we went to El Charro to have some of the best Mexican i've ever tasted, I overate of course.  Had trouble sleeping with over analyzing on how to beat Elf's with BoC.  Finally passed out around 2 AM.

Day 2, Showed up at the store to early, hung out in the parking lot.  They posted the standings on the window and it was battle points + comp.  Mine showed a 83 instead of a 103, a mistake was made where Tobin received a 20 instead of a 0.  We brought this to Ian's attention and he made the correction, but at this point in time the pairings had already be done.  Due to this i ended up facing Drew in Round 4.

Round 4 Drew's Dwarfs Mission Table Quarters.
I played Drew 3 times before the tides of war for practice and lost every time.  Drew's smart, knows the armies and how to play against him and I've known Drew for about as long at Pat 10+ years.  The game went pretty mush how are other games went.  I mess up on charges, he kills and slows the right things, back up being out of charge range and then i get charged by Dwarfs.  The kicker to this was it was a table quarters mission and dwarfs are slow.  I dig two dog units on my two table quarters holding them, push one flank really hard controlling it and then contest the other.  If this had been a vp mission Drew would have won by at least a 1000 points.
ended 15 5.

Round 5 Pat's Dwarfs. Mission King of the Hill
Now this pairing surprised me a bit,  Patrick only had a 36 battle at this point but it was enough to put him in the upper bracket.  And since i was being paired at -20Bps i was to play my good friend Pat.  Pat's luck defeated him more than i did.  He decided to go big turn 1 with the anvil and rolled the bad rolls losing it.  He also bunkered in on one corner with most of his units lining up nice and even.  By turn 3 all my hard hitting units charged at the same time.  I killed the thundered infront of his blocks and overran with the chariots and herds, the minos were already engaged and had a continuation of combat. The good thing about dwarf blocks is that they are hard to punch through.  Pat throws dawn the oathstone on one unit and holds with the others.  I loose combat and has 6 units running directly away.  He can't pursue with the oathstoned unit and chooses not to with the other.  If he had he could have charged my fleeing units doing more damage.  I rally and set up for the following turn.  I plow through the rest of his army leaving the oathstoned unit untouched knowing i'd loose to much trying to take it down. 
Ended 20 0

I owe Pat and Drew beers and dinner.

During my game with Pat, Ian mentions that i was in the running so don't screw up.

Beav played king maker and Defeated Nohea the other BoC in the lead making my chances greater.

Knowing i spent time painting my army to a higher standard, that should pad me alittle bit since Quentin had a 4 BP lead over me.

Sportsmanship, Comp and Painting push me over,  pretty much the same with the leagues and RTT's here in San Diego.  I play for fun and the people,  I like the competitive nature of tournaments but I'm fairly versed on patience and the do's and don'ts of tournament play(Mostly 40k).

I came to AZ, played and conquered.  Have a nice plaque and custom Warhammer to put up at Game Empire.

Here is the list i went with:

Doombull (1#, 266 Pts)
   1 Doombull of Khorne @ 266 Pts
      General; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Causes Fear; Frenzy
      1 Slaughterer's Blade @ [40] Pts

 3 Minotaurs of Khorne @ 183 Pts
      Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Frenzy

Minotaurs (4#, 229 Pts)
   4 Minotaurs of Khorne @ 229 Pts
      Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Frenzy

4 Minotaurs of Khorne @ 229 Pts
      Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Frenzy

4 Minotaurs of Khorne @ 229 Pts
      Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Frenzy

1 Tuskgor Chariot of Khorne @ 130 Pts

1 Tuskgor Chariot of Khorne @ 130 Pts

1 Tuskgor Chariot of Khorne @ 130 Pts

1 Tuskgor Chariot of Khorne @ 130 Pts

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 Pts)

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 Pts)

Beast Herd (21#, 140 Pts)
   6 Gors @ 140 Pts
      Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      1 Foe-Render @ [27] Pts
         Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      14 Ungor @ [56] Pts
         Spear

Beast Herd (21#, 140 Pts)
   6 Gors @ 140 Pts
      Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      1 Foe-Render @ [27] Pts
         Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      14 Ungor @ [56] Pts
         Spear

Beast Herd (21#, 140 Pts)
   6 Gors @ 140 Pts
      Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      1 Foe-Render @ [27] Pts
         Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon
      14 Ungor @ [56] Pts
         Spear

Centigor (5#, 102 Pts)
   5 Centigor @ 102 Pts
      Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour; Shield

Total Roster Cost: 2238

I'll go again for the reasons i've listed above.

I'd like to see a tailored comp system per army.  I liked the missions, having tomb kings on the side of good felt funny.  Good vs. Evil is a good idea but hard to pull off.  I think you can only have one or the other Comp system or Good vs Evil. 

Best,
David Fay, hope to join the baby killer club.

[rudedog]

And for all your trouble and effort you got what?  A plaque with your name on it and a Home Depot made hammer?  While other people who came in below you got Army Boxes and Battalion Box sets?  Sure you had a good time, sounds like you should have made friends with the guys handing out the prizes instead.  What a rip off.  From this end I’d even say rigged…  but then I don’t know all the facts, like stealth judging the Composition scores… 

[Gobbla]

Hey Rudy,

When was the last time you played in a WFB or 40k event?

just curious.

[captkurt]

Everything was on the up and up, there were a few organizational issues, but that aside all was definitely on the level.

I was a little surprised at the distribution of prize support, but that is how the TOs wanted to dole it out, their choice after all.

[Dave_Fay]

Hey Rudy,

When was the last time you played in a WFB or 40k event?

just curious.

Rudy owned me in a RTT not that long ago with his dwarfs

[dimitriale]

And for all your trouble and effort you got what?  A plaque with your name on it and a Home Depot made hammer?  While other people who came in below you got Army Boxes and Battalion Box sets?  Sure you had a good time, sounds like you should have made friends with the guys handing out the prizes instead.  What a rip off.  From this end I’d even say rigged…  but then I don’t know all the facts, like stealth judging the Composition scores…  

I would like to thank Kurt, Bob Felix and David Fay for their emails with their thought and good ideas, several of which will likely be implemented next year.

We are going to move away from the good vs. evil and probably change composition score to a combination of player judged and comp judged prior to event.

If any of the guys who played this year want to add anything email me at iandimitri004@gmail.com.

The next time I come back to this forum will be 6 months out to announce next years tournament which will likely be in late October.

If any of you want to come out to a tournament when the lists are not quite as nasty and prove your generalship you are welcome to come on down.

Of the three clubs that came out, the San Diego group needed the most help in battle, so practice up.  

[Matt]

Matt:  DoW take Maneaters as Specials, which is one of the few bright spots for DoW.

Yes, and at 90 points each, it is tough to get them into an army along with rhinox riders.  With points, not slots, being the limiting factor, multiple man eaters will get you more bang for you buck.

-Matt

[Matt]

Rudy owned me in a RTT not that long ago with his dwarfs

I made it to Two RTT's this year.  Rudy was at both.

-Matt

[rudedog]

I won Best Sportsmanship (and with Daemons no less) at a RTT just a week before the Tides of War. 
Just saying...   


Hey everyone, I think I've just been uninvited to a Tournament I'll never go to.  Bummer…

Just so you folks out there should know, I am NOT a member of the Pacific Marauder Club.  Just because a person lives in Southern California, does not make them an automatic member.  Although I can see how a person can make a conclusion like that, just as I made a conclusion without having all the facts.

[Gobbla]

Of the three clubs that came out, the San Diego group needed the most help in battle, so practice up. 

A San Diego guy wins the tournament, and you guys are told you need to practice.

One of the best sportsmen in San Diego gets hammered for Sportsmanship and Comp (damn those skinks).

One of the best players in San Diego gets personally disinvited to the next tournament by the tournament organizer.

Yeah, that went well.

[Matt]

A San Diego guy wins the tournament, and you guys are told you need to practice.

One of the best sportsmen in San Diego gets hammered for Sportsmanship and Comp (damn those skinks).

One of the best players in San Diego gets personally disinvited to the next tournament by the tournament organizer.

Yeah, that went well.

The tone from the organizer gave me the feeling that when I can travel again (~3-4 years) that I won't feel welcome.  It's too bad really, what they attempted to do with comp is more of the type of games I enjoy.  Too bad he didn't explain the event to encourage more attendance next year.

-Matt

[Bama]

I think that there is some animosity going on that isn't warranted. If someone has a problem with how things are done you shouldn't ask them to not come just don't say anything. And to add to a point previously made, out of the 6 San Diego players (Sorry Pat, you don't count yet) only 2 were Pacific Marauders.

I think that the tournament was a fun tournament because it was different. Do I have questions on how things were done...some but nothing really major. As for saying that our battle scores were bad and that we need practice was uncalled for and actually condescending. In the top 20 there were 4 of us. Not to brag but I would put our core players up against anyone else's players.

My biggest gripe was that going into the tournament it was almost impossible for me to win. I was playing to play. By that I mean Dave Faye had a composition score of 60 and mine was 30. Now, I'm not complaining about my comp score but what I do want to bring your attention to is that before any games were played Dave was ahead of me by 30 points. And with him getting soft fluffy armies in the first 2 rounds the gap was only going to remain the same or widen. For me to catch Dave he had to get 0 points in one game and 10 points in another and I had to get two 20 point massacres just to pull even.  There were at least 1/2 the people in the tournament that were unable to win due to this. I'm a firm believer about being fair. If 1/2 the people that come to a tournament have no shot at winning, doesn't that say something?

I liked the quiz but to give only one point seemed to make it a waste of time. Each person should get one point for each correct answer. I was in the first and second Seattle GT's and they did a quiz then. It was great, 10 questions and everyone got a point for each correct answer. This could help slightly to minimize the gap in points.

A composition system if used needs to be per army book. You really can't make system wide comp rules and expect them to help/hinder each army equally. Example: High Elves got +4 if they brought zero shooting. To do this they had to give up archers, magic bows, Ellyrion Reavers, Tiranoc Chariots, and bolt throwers. For a Vampire Count to get the same +4 he gives up...banshees. Beastmen are the same way. To get the +4 they gave of centigors. I played beastmen for a long time and I never brought centigors. They are not an integral part of the army and are not required in most builds. So, why did they get the same bonus that a high elf got for giving up shooting? That doesn't seem fair does it? When designing a comp system it has to be balanced for all army books.

The matchups were off as well. The Tomb King player on the side of good who won best General. Did he play any of the top 5 evil players? I don't know. But if he didn't play them then the pairings were done wrong. He should have to play the highest evil players his last two games. I know he didn't play Dave who won but did he play the evil sides best general? Again, I don't know. I know Dave played both Drew and Pat who were really low. I think they were 31 and 35 respectively. And I'm not knocking Dave, he won given the opponents put in front of him and I'm glad he won. But Dave should have played higher ranking opponents. Bob was ranked lower than Dave the whole tournament but played and lost to a wood elf player that was definitely higher in ranking than Drew. Dave could have played him. The pairings were supposed to be by scores after game two but I don't think they were. Dave's score was off by 20 points when he was told that he had to play Drew. Dave did bring it to their attention but they told him to go ahead and play Drew.

All in all, this was a tournament like any other tournament with its pros and cons. It wasn't the best but it wasn't the worst.

[Gobbla]

Add in 2 pts. for painting, and Dave started with a 4 games advantage over Kurt.  Kurt could have decisively beaten Dave in 4 games (by 800pts. per game!) , and they would have been tied (except for Kurt's poor sportsmanship).  Worse, meeting the parameters for a high comp score did not disadvantage Dave's army.  

They took a large, arbitrary composition score and added it to the other scores on a point-for-point basis.  That's the problem.