Tides of War in Phoenix

[Wolflord Patrick]

Pat, I hear that the "Baby-Killers Gaming Club" is always accepting new members.

LOL, yeah.... However, I think that BKGC President Bob and VP Kurt may actually enforce that I win a few tournament games before being allowed in as a member...

You guys got free T-shirts right?

Really the Baby-Killers Gaming Club is probably more of a fraternity than a club... During initiation week they may ask me to drop a cinder-block off a roof that's tied to my junk and I might have to turn that one down...

[captkurt]

Really the Baby-Killers Gaming Club is probably more of a fraternity than a club... During initiation week they may ask me to drop a cinder-block off a roof that's tied to my junk and I might have to turn that one down...

Do you trust that we do not want to see you die here tonight?

[Bama]

Hey! I'm the VP. Kurt is our secretary.

[dimitriale]

It was nice to get so many people from California to come to the tournament. As a new group in Phoenix we strived to make it fun for the people who came to play. Reading many of the comments here (some of which were made by people who did not come) it seems there were some concerns and gripes. The tournament was designed to give a slightly different experience, where one could bring a slightly weaker list and still have a decent time. This was indeed a success as you look at the armies that took top spots.
For next year we are slightly changing the comp system to reflect some natural differences in the armies. We are keeping the overall all comp component the same percentage of total points and changing that 25 percent of your comp points will be awarded by your opponents.
Most people paid early and paid $45 for the tournament. There was roughly $600 in prize support as product. The shirts, dice, oil painting of winners, feeding 120 people, and plaques did in fact use the rest of the money.
If you played and had a complaint about the pairings, you need to realize the good vs. evil format (which will likely be going away next year as it caused many issues) made it by the fourth and fifth games you had already played 25% of your available opponents. So if you have run a tournament then you know the pairings at the end get tricky to make sure people avoid playing the same person twice.
Finally on the issues of people who had issues with their composition score. The system obviously had some issues. It was published in advance so you were in control of your score. As far as I can tell by looking at your total battle points it did not put any of you in jeopardy of losing a possible award or significantly change the outcome.  Channel, Felix and Beaver were in the top half of total battle points at spots 10th, 12th and 18th respectively. Only two-three of the lists in the top ten were of a comparable power level to those three lists with the remaining 7 being rather middle of the road so soft in power level. The net effect, the best generals for these five games did rise to the top of the scoring.
The group is definitely open to ideas or way you think the tournament can be made better. I am more interested in people who actually come to the event and what you have to say. Kurt provided me an excellent list of insight and advice.
It will be better next year. Hopefully we will see some of you there.
See you at Broadside Bash,
Ian

[Matt]

I am more interested in people who actually come to the event and what you have to say. Kurt provided me an excellent list of insight and advice.
It will be better next year. Hopefully we will see some of you there.
See you at Broadside Bash,
Ian

I can't make it out to Phoenix, but I wouldn't show up at an event with that type of comp scoring.  I see what the attempt was, but having a short list of comp effects (X number of shooters, X power dice... and so on) doesn't mesh well with a subjective scoring.  I can build a list, and all I will know is that my comp landed within a 17 point range. (my set score +/- 8 points).  I'd say go with all hard scoring, or go all subjective. 
Also, taking blanket effects and applying them across the armies doesn't really equate. 
Lots of shooting units get dinked on by comp; because you want to prevent a gun line (not that I've seen one show up in recent memory).
Ok, so you come up with a set rule where more than X units shooting hoses your comp.
The problem is, some units have a shooting attack, that totally sucks, but they come with it.  So, ogre armies actually lose points for taking gnoblars, trappers, and hunters.  I don't think anyone has to worry about overwhelming firepower from them, yet taking them actually cost you points.
Anyway, it looks like you have a new plan for comp in the works.


Good vs Evil never seems to work out well.  The method I've done that seems to work well is initially pair off of comp (have judges rate lists for comp pairing if comp is scored by opponents), and match players of equal comp.  After the initial round, pair by records 1st, but if pairings are tied, pair by comp.


Terrain: just my experience, we placed terrain and told players not to move it (unless by spell) and return it to the original position at the end, if it was moved.  At most we had 16 tables, and 4 terrain lay outs.  We actually used small squares of tap to mark where terrain should be so that we could rapidly reset tables in needed.
1) mirrored, with center open.
2) diagonal terrain with one piece in opposite corners (terrain spread looked like a % sign)
3) 2 impassables off center, hill, woods and ruins on one side, hill on the other.
4) 4 terrain pieces in the neutral area, one in each deployment zone.
We made sure each player played at least one game on each terrain sets.  This way we knew players were getting a mix of set ups to deal with.


-Matt

[JohnHwangCC]

It was published in advance so you were in control of your score.

The group is definitely open to ideas or way you think the tournament can be made better. I am more interested in people who actually come to the event and what you have to say.

Limiting commentary to attendees is pretty pointless, because you won't figure out why people didn't or wouldn't go.  Basically, you're asking why people would / wouldn't come back, vs why people didn't come at all.

In my case, I don't travel for tournaments lately, though I did go to Vegas a couple times.  I took one look at your Comp, and understood that it totally hosed my army (Dogs of War).  My DoW need to be able to field very strong Specials, as the DoW Core simply isn't competitive.  I took one look at your Comp and said to myself "Hell, NO!".

To be even close to competitive, my DoW (38) would take:
850-1050 pts Chars (-8)
0-300 pts Items (-0)
500-825 pts Core (-4)
<40 Shooting (0)
<45 Str 5 HtH (0)
7 PD (0)
That's a net 38 -8 -4 = 26 Comp which I saw as not impressive, and would have given me a near-bottom Comp score.

If I'm going to start with a -12 Comp hit, I'd rather show up with Mega-Magic Pure Tzeentch (and blow the roof off the -12 penalty with 20+ (30?) PD).

[dimitriale]

To be even close to competitive, my DoW (38) would take:
850-1050 pts Chars (-8)
0-300 pts Items (-0)
500-825 pts Core (-4)
<40 Shooting (0)
<45 Str 5 HtH (0)
7 PD (0)
That's a net 38 -8 -4 = 26 Comp which I saw as not impressive, and would have given me a near-bottom Comp score.

OR....

Since you can't get more than about 650 points in characters in a DOW list with no specials you get (0) in Characters.
Items (0)
Easily get over 850 in core (since you can use the points you couldn't use in characters anyway) (0)
shooting (0)
Magic (0)

+8 from the judges I am sure.

lands you at 46.

The one Dogs of War player who came had an absolute blast.

Ian

[JohnHwangCC]

From your comments, I think you probably don't play Dogs of War.

A competition standard Dogs of War army list would contain the following Characters:
Wizard Lord (~250)
1 Paymaster (~80, mandatory)
Asarnil the Dragonlord (460 Flying Terror)
Truthsayer (265)

That's tailored to be just under the 1050 pts threshold.  The only modifier would be Rhinox cavalry, to replace Asarnil, but I'd rather see that at 3000 pts.

The idea that DoW wouldn't take their RoRs when they are allowed to makes no sense - otherwise, it's just playing crippled Empire without any Magic Items or Special Rules.

For Core, it's best to keep the points down.  DoW Core are only good for support, as smaller units.  550 pts is the most I'd spend there, and that's only because you have a 500-pt minimum.  There is no way I'd spend an extra 300 pts on Core when I need to spend those points on Specials with better Ld / Psych instead.

Besides, as your results sheet shows, a few points of Comp is meaningless when the Battle differential is so high.  All I need to do is win a game instead of drawing (or more likely, draw instead of losing), and it's totally worth it.

I didn't see Dogs of War on your results.  Who was he, and why isn't he listed as DoW?

[Dave_Fay]

Hey John,

When was the last time you played in a WFB or 40k event?

just curious.

[JohnHwangCC]

If you're talking a Con type thing, it's probably been a couple years.

Which sounds bad, except that the DoW army list hasn't been updated in ages, so nothing has changed there.  What was good then is still good now, and what wasn't good before hasn't gotten any better.

I'd very much like a new, competitive DoW book - it looks like it'd have to last quite a while. 

[Matt]

If you're talking a Con type thing, it's probably been a couple years.

Which sounds bad, except that the DoW army list hasn't been updated in ages, so nothing has changed there.  What was good then is still good now, and what wasn't good before hasn't gotten any better.

I'd very much like a new, competitive DoW book - it looks like it'd have to last quite a while. 

Have you ever run the Rhinox that you wouldn't take until 3,000 points?
My experience is you'd be much better off with 3 or 4 units of man eaters.

-Matt

[Qrab]

A competition standard Dogs of War army list would contain the following Characters:

This is where you went wrong.*

Clearly the event was a competition, but it was not a standard competition. The composition scoring is/was intended to persuade people away from standard competition armies. As such, a DoW army that was different than what you consider "competition standard" could very well have done OK. DoW have plenty of options to chose from to field an army that is competitive AND compatible with the ethos of this event.

The problem is that, from what I've seen of your army, you don't own the models to field anything but an army that would've taken a comp hit. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should be more forthcoming with the basis for your criticism.

*In addition to the fact that I've seen DoW lists that have very different unit/character choices.

[JohnHwangCC]

Qrab:  I think you've seen pretty much all of it, and if I'm not getting an actual, honest to goodness, printed army book, I'm not really interested in putting more work into my Dogs of War.  It's not GW GT-legal, it's not GW-supported, so why bother?  The amount of effort that it would take to extend my DoW would be the same as starting Daemons - at least that army won't be killed off by GW anytime soon...  As for disclosure, I said in my post that his Comp would hose my army, and then I gave an example of what I'd field.  I fail to see how that isn't forthcoming.

Matt:  DoW take Maneaters as Specials, which is one of the few bright spots for DoW.

[Qrab]

Based on Ian's response I don't think you were clear enough. It's fair to say that one could read your post & get the impression that you think that Dogs of War as a whole were hosed by the composition rules, rather than your specific army.

The choice to purchase models to for an army that GW doesn't officially support is a tricky one. It doesn't stop everyone (http://warmongers.ziggyqubert.com/wmbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7467), but the choice is always risky. That said, I don't think it's necessarily fair to use that as a basis for criticizing the comp rules without being more explicit.

[dimitriale]

I didn't see Dogs of War on your results.  Who was he, and why isn't he listed as DoW?

Here is Doc Tobin's list:

One thing should be noted;  Herr General "Master Engineer Moab Von Heffeweizen" had planned on leading an human "Empire Army",  however the Collegium de Mechanique for some reason decided that they wouldn't let him leave Nuln as planned with a steamtank, hellblasters, great cannons, pistoliers, repeating hanguns, and 50-60 handgunners (it's not entirely clear why; some say it was a warning from an official on the compostion board, and some say it had something to do with the Elector Counts daughter...). Nevertheless, Von Heffewiezen being determined to help stem the tide of war, so used a part of his families vast brewing fortune and hastily recruited a drunken troup of mercenaries that have been come to be known as "Heffeweizen's Hunde des Kreiges". As we speak the somewhat hungover lot is preparing to march north, moral is high and is expected to remain so as long as the pilsner holds out. Heffeweizen has thus been able to enlist the following Dogs of War (which as you see are for the most part actually is a cohesive human empire army (are giants human?) albeit there's not a black powder weapon amoungst them):
 
 Mercenary General @ 126 Pts
   General; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour
   1 Sword of Might @ [20] Pts
   1 Enchanted Shield @ [10] Pts
 
1 Mercenary Captain @ 104 Pts
   Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
   1 Warhorse @

• Pts

   1 Sword of Striking @ [30] Pts
 
1 Paymaster @ 63 Pts
   Hand Weapon; Morning Star; Heavy Armour; Shield
 
1 Hireling Wizard @ 110 Pts
   Hand Weapon
   1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts
   1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts
 
8 Heavy Cavalry @ 234 Pts
   Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
   1 Champion @ [36] Pts
      Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield
   9 Warhorse @

• Pts

26 Pikemen @ 325 Pts
   Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
   1 Champion @ [20] Pts
      Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
   1 War Banner @ [25] Pts
 
23 Pikemen @ 270 Pts
   Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
   1 Champion @ [20] Pts
      Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
 
23 Pikemen @ 270 Pts
   Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
   1 Champion @ [20] Pts
      Hand Weapon; Pike; Light Armour
 
1 Giant @ 205 Pts
   Causes Terror; Ignore Greenskin Panic; Large Target; Stubborn
 
1 Giant @ 205 Pts
   Causes Terror; Ignore Greenskin Panic; Large Target; Stubborn
 
6 Light Cavalry @ 93 Pts
   Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Shield; Fast Cavalry
   6 Warhorse @

• Pts

6 Light Cavalry @ 99 Pts
   Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Spear; Shield; Fast Cavalry
   6 Warhorse @

• Pts

9 Duellists @ 64 Pts
   Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Shield; Skirmishers
 
10 Duellists @ 80 Pts
   Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Skirmishers
 
Total Roster Cost: 2248

How do you like this list?

I'm guessing by most of your comments you might not have a good time at our tournament.

But you never know.....