BSB and Herdstone

[theDarkGeneral]

Ok, I can finally post up now...I've been working both jobs for the past couple of days, and haven't had the time to read through much...took me 45minutes to catch up!

All right, not sure where to start but hopefully I can help shed some light on the issues that came up on the Herdstone website...


*Cliff:  I think Cliff is great people, and always fun to talk with, so long as the conversation doesn't lean towards Josh. However, I myself and several other SoCal GW League players have felt "burned" at a couple Strategicon events, one in particular. This is what finally got us all to not attend, as we saw no point in traveling that far to play in a Tournament that was set at a fair level of playing. I still feel Cliff is good people, and would've loved to have gotten a chance to play him at the Broadside Bash, maybe next year!

*Strategicon:  We used to always look forward to playing in this event, but after a couple of bad experiences, many of us started to shy away from it. I'll explain one now in detail...

It was about a year and a half ago, I think it was the late year Strategicon event, the second to last one Cliff and the Game Empire San Diego ran. I brought up several players as usual for the Tourney; Billy May (Slaanesh Daemonic Legions), Joey Delarosa (Skaven), Alex (Skaven), Toby Walker (Dwarfs) and we met up with many of my fellow SCGWL buddies-Dana Hohn (Bretonnians), Clive Henrick (Empire), Steve Masuta (Skaven), Stefan Viterstadt (Dark Elves), Ben Richard (Ogre Kingdoms), Ron McLaughlin (Tomb Kings), Jon Napier (Chaos Mortals) and Big Quinten Bohn (Khorne Beasts of Chaos).

Saturday had the 40K side and there was some questions raised about the Painting Scores handed out by the judging staff, as well as pairings, but I didn't really pay much attention to it...

Sunday comes, and we play. Round 1 I was paired up against Ben Richard's buddy, Stienz and his Bretonnians. Billy faced Steve Masuta's Skaven, Toby played Dana Hohn, Stefan against a Khorne Daemon Army, etc. I edged out a Solid Victory (17pts), Steve Masuta got a Massacre (20pts) over Billy, Stefan had a Massacre over his opponent, and so on.

In round 2, I played Masuta (it was the first time we've ever played!), and thought "oh wow, must've been and odd amount of Massacres" since I had a Solid Victory and he had a Massacre after game #1. Cliff actually pulled up a chair to watch most of our game because he thought we're both good players, and that it should be a good match up...it was! My first of several battles now against Masuta all ending in Draws thus far...so 10pts for the both of us. Stefan gained another Massacre, so another 20 pts for him, Clive Henrick's Empire Massacred Dana Hohn's Bretonnians, Ron McLaughlin gained a Massacre over Big Quentin's Khorne Beasts.

Ron ended up having to pull out because his wife callled, and threatend him with divorce if he didn't get home soon!       So he had to bow out. Now, according to Cliff, Ron was out in front as the top spot after Round 2 with all scores combined...

In round 3, after my Solid Victory (17pts) and Draw (10pts), I played my nemesis and good friend Stefan Viterstadt who had 2 Massacres! (40pts) Steve Masuta had a Massacre (20pts) and a Draw (10pts) but faced Clive Henrick who had 2 Massacres (40pts) as well. Funny thing is, Stefan and I are always back and forth on wins/losses/draw versus each other, so the pairing seemed really, really strange and Masuta usually beats Clive when they face off. We asked Cliff about the pairings, and he said everying is in order, so we didn't question it again...he's a nice guy and we never thought there'd be some odd pairings going on.

Stefan and I get another Draw against each other, and Clive gets Massacred by Steve Masuta (again)...we basically eliminate each other from contention for Overall as the guy who won (none of us knew him) with Tomb Kings played all 3 games against his friends, won all 3 (Massacres if I remember right), got really high soft scores for it along with high Painting scores judged by Cliff and one of his friends. Honestly, the Tomb King Army was alright looking, but it didn't deserve the high marks it was given.

Sooooo...the young guy (again, don't know him) takes the Overall spot and all of us were like "WHO???"...while Jon Napier and Richard Bark took Best Appearance/Best Themed, and I took Best Sportsmanship. Cliff of course couldn't understand this one, since I had a "broken Daemon list" and made a little comment about it before he handed out the award to me. I just laughed and took it as he was joking.



So to us, the L.A., Inland Empire, O.C., etc. players the Tournament didn't run correctly and the outcome wasn't what it would've been normally. This made for some bad perceptions of Cliff, and thus all San Diego gamers. Throw in the fact that Henry Herz originates from San Diego and has a horrible reputation with all the stores and League players out this way, and it just made for a really bad circumstance.



I've talked with Quentin, who's the main person with issues towards Cliff. Nothing personally against him, just how he runs tournaments. I know they've exchanged PM's, and are trying to work things out, and for the gaming community as a whole, I hope they do!


I know Kurt and Wade and several others have come under some heat, but it's to be expected when you run an event like this. I took my share of lumps from the SoCal Slaughter stemming from Army Comp Scores, to tough Scenarios, to time lagging in between rounds, to Rules issues. It just goes with the Territory.

Bob Felix has made some really good points, one mainly that to the non-San Diego gamers, the Pacific Marauders and San Diego gamers are one in the same. Just as "LA" gamers seem to be all one in the same, though there's several different cliques, Leagues and Clubs.

I don't agree with Army Comp for Pairings being thrown out. I think it sets a really good tone/atmosphere for the Tournament. The biggest compliment I've gotten from the first SoCal Slaughter was using this system, which is now wide spread amongst the Indy GTs. It was also mentioned to me, via the other guys at the Broadside Bash, that they loved that you guys (Pac Mods) inocorporated it into your event.

As I've learned the hard way, Scoring a Tournament can be tricky and many spots are open to subjectivity of a Judge. GW uses me for a Rules Judge in many of the Tournaments (LA Gamesday, Bunker Tourneys, etc.) and that's a role I'm comfortable with. Judging Army Comp I'm also comfortable with, as I've played since the dawn of time it seems, with everything and against everything several times over. Painting I'm not too keen on, so I had another guy (Toby Walker) judge that as he took 2nd Best Appearance at the Vegas GT for his Eldar. Still, the open scoring of players for their opponent's Sportsmanship is hard to truly track and measure, as is their views on Army Comp.

It's my firm belief that players who bring softer or more balanced Armies should be rewarded for it by playing other such Armies in Rounds 1 and 2 at a big Tournament, while the Power Gamers can unleash their fury upon one another early on and get it all out of their systems. Nothing sucks more then to see "John Doe" with his Orc Infantry Army get mauled horridly by a Double-Skull Chukka Army in game #1, then get blasted to bits by the 2nd Gen. Slaan and Skink/Salamander Army of Doom...it can really put a damper on these players views of the Tournament scene.


After Round 2 though, I think Battle Points only are a must!

Oh, and I do feel it fair and right within the Tournament organizers to move pairings around a bit to cater some to the players who face off all the time. After all, the Tournament is for them, right? I had no problem doing this for Robert Felix and Ken Krogman (?) at the Slaughter because it was my Tournament, and it was for the benefit of it as a whole to do so.




I hope this clears up some misconceptions between the different gaming clubs/leagues, and if there's any questions or thoughts, I'd be more then willing to answer them in full! I'm striving to get the Southern California gaming world to work smoothly with one another...I know it can be done!

[DogOfWar]

This is a whole lotta drama between grown men playing with elf and unicorn dollies.

[Cliff]

It's me Cliff.

Hey guys wanted to adress a couple things real quick.

First I am PM'ing Quintin and trying to clear up what's going on with that.  He made a number of valid points and yes it did start with a missunderstanding. 

In the first tournament I ran up thier he won Best Sportsmanship, at the time he registered his army he had 2 Giants and a Lord on a dragon in his list.  I thought to myself "Wow this guy is a major power gamer bringing 3 terror causers to an RT." and I figured he was not going to win a thing under the RTT format.  I was totally surprised when he won best sportsmanship and when I handed him his trophy I said I was suprised he won that with such a powergaming list. Mesaage meant to be given was "You must be one awesome guy to play if you can get Best Sportsman with a 3 terror causing list", what he heard was "You don't deserve this prize".

2nd thing he said is I butt into the game rules too much as a reff and his opinion is that I am not fluent with the rules in the first place. I do admit that I play as an active reff because I like to see things done right and this generates some hostility.  In the future I am defiantely going to be more passive.  As far as rules knowledge I am willing to wager I know them better than 99% of the players out there,  yes I made a few minor mistakes but as soon as they were pointed out to me I acknowledged and corrected them.

3rd thing he said was the same as Touradje's post about that toumbkings guy.  His winning overall totally stunned me and I have had to go back and figure out how it happened and this is what I discovered.

All battle pairings after the first random one were based on battle scores.  Ron dumping the tournament in the middle very much intereferred in the top pairings.  The toumbking player had a draw and a win when he entered 3rd round, that put him at the bottom of the top 5 players which means he is supposed to play the top of the remainders, he had already played the two people directly below him so that sent him deeper into the losers bracket. Meanwhile,  his wife had scored a loss and a draw,  which put her in the lower middle of the losers tier, everyone below here evenly match up and she had played the person directly above her already therefore, she jumped up the ladder and that is where they met in game 3.  He ended up beating her,  she then gave him max scores on comp and sportsmanship and all 3 of the soft score end event votes.  He had also recieved the 2 other softscore votes for best sportsmanship so he got a unanimous 3 votes.  If you know how the point multiplier works on that you know that is a ton of sportsmanship points. He also recieved painting and theme votes from his wife and one other player which helped his score.  The other players had won thier games as stated by Touradj but a win and a massacre are not that far apart point wise.

With all the math completed he ended up winning my 2 points.  The soft scores catapulted him to the top.

By the way,  no one in San Diego knows this guy including me.  He wandered into my store 4 days before the event with his wife, said he was visiting friends and had signed up for the tournament while in the region. I have never seen him since.

I hope this makes sense to everyone.  The scoring system is very complex and takes a lot of understanding.

Sincerely,

Cliff

[Cliff]

As afr as my support for the tournament goes I just has a coversation with Wade and boy am I suprised.  Apperantly the tournament organisers failed to tell you guys that the only reason GW sent you prize support is because I vouched and sponsored you guys.  Gw called me up and said thier new policy would not allow them to hand you guys prize support because of all the abuse to the system the outriders did. They said I had to be the host of the event and sponsor it for there to be prise support.  I convinced them that I did not need to host it,  but I would sponsor it and monitor it.  I spoke at length about making sure they were generouse with the support because I knew the convention guys were not likely to chip in and you guys were not going to give out Dealer Dollars like I traditionally did.
I had all this approved for you guys with GW and the prizes were shipped to my store and the PM's picked it up.

Wade tells me that I donated nothing and all the prizes came from Gametown. WTF!!?!?!?

I am getting the feeling that thier are elements of the PM's that are still hostile to me from the old Game Wherehouse days.  I hope that when they whisper into your guys's ears that you take it with a grain of salt and allow my own history and behavior to stand for itself.  I  have definately made bad calls in the past but I do my best to fix them and provide the best gaming experience for everyone.  Hope this clears things up a little bit with you guys.

Sincerely,

Cliff

[captkurt]

There is support and sponsorship, which are different things.  Both are important.

GE has provided a lot of support in terms of gaming space, vouching for us with GW, assisting with some of our local competitions, etc.  While not often directly providing sponsorship (in the form of free prizes), Cliff and the crew at GE have always been there in terms of support, especially with the arrangement with GW for prizes.

We do have some direct contacts with GW, such as Kyle (used to be Battle Bunker manager) and Chris Cailor.  So they are able to assist in other areas of organizational support.

Finally we have had other companies, such as Game Town, Reaper and Conquest Game directly provide sponsorship in the form of prizes for our events.

Without the support and sponsorship of ALL of these companies and individuals, we would not have been able to pull off the event.  A big thanks should go out to all of our sponsors:

Game Empire
Game Towne
Games Workshop
Reaper Miniatures
Conquest Games
Pacific Marauders
and Touraj gave a lot of help pimping the event to the LA/Riverside groups.

Lots of people have issues with GE, as they have issues with GW, as with GMI, as with GT, as with Reaper, as with people personally, as with rules, as with painting, etc, etc, etc.  I think that we are finally starting to pull the Southern California gaming community together more and we will all benefit from it.

Scoring these events is a BITCH!  So many things can have impact of the final scores, some you can see coming, some things come out of left field.  Lots of situations screw up the pairings and no one will ever be completely satisfied.  If only I had played this guy or that guy, or if only I had included a movement tray, if that scenario had not screwed me, or I had not guess wrong on that canon shot, or had rolled better dice.  This is the nature of the game and you just have to deal with it.

[GW_Kyle]

Kurt,

Im still at the Bunker.

I want to say that I have heard nothing but great things about your event and you guys should be applauded for your hard work and effort. The big thing that people don't understand is the massive amount of: blood, sweat, tears, money, time and love to pull off one of these events.

You will have a few people who will not agree, but if the masses enjoyed themselves overall, then you have done a great job. And PM did an outstanding job!

I want to thank guys like Cliff, PM, Socal GW for having the love for the hobby and taking the time to run great events!

Remember in the end we play to have fun and move models across a table.

Cheers
Kyle

[DarkBlood]

Wade tells me that I donated nothing and all the prizes came from Gametown. WTF!!?!?!?

Cliff,
I think you just got caught in semantics.  Everyone knows you gave time and sponsorship and we couldn't have done the event without you.  So you didn't "donate" a physical prize, you were still listed as a primary sponsor.  GE was announced as such prior to, at, and after the event.

Thank you once again.

[Cliff]

Thanks

[grouchysmurf]

....wow...it is army men right?    Toys?       i came back after 2 years, got slaughtered in 40k at my first tourney in long time and now have to hear all the chirpings of unhappy people and he said she said bs..........i wonder why i left anyways?

  Anyways, i thought it was great tourney ran by great gamers and i had fun meeting the la players(actually played 3 of them) i think, and i definitely had some good games with them.  I still think Kurt made that mission for me to lose!....lol

  I dont know all involved in running the show but it was a good tourney and i say thank you guys all for running it!

  Now if i can only represent my gaming a little bit.....hmmm

[006andahalf]

While I profess I was sort of a member of the Game Warehouse crowd, which sort of formed much of the genesis for the PMs (though I'm not a PM, primarily just because I haven't gotten around to it), I honestly have no hostility or doubts whatsoever about Cliff's amiability, honesty, and good nature (and have never heard otherwise from any other) and am always glad to be in his store and watching him play is always entertaining -- particularly the orcs. 

If anyone has any lingering hostility toward you Cliff over any of that incredibly long-past and minor stuff, which shouldn't have even existed in the first place, then I don't think that that they deserve your concern.  My $0.02

[theDarkGeneral]

I"m glad to see everything is getting worked out! I've talked with Big Quinten quite a bit about this, as he is a good friend of mine, and he's working on making peace with Cliff and the Game Empire crowd...this is good for the hobby!


Much thanks to you CptKurt for the props, and a well run Tournament! I look forward to the next few Indy GTs, and hopefully many of you will be able to make it up to my SoCal Slaughter II!


Oh, and as for the comment about little plastic toys, army men, etc., I actually take offense to that. My son plays with little plastic toys and army men and the such, these are models that are expensive, and time consuming to assemble and paint (for those who paint well at least! ) The time it takes to learn this great game, the effort into reading all the rules, fluff and FAQs, and tactica and create a list is rather lengthy indeed...not to mention the cost it takes to attend Tournaments, from the gas to drive back and forth, parking, hotel rooms, tournament registration, food, beer, etc...yeah, this isn't "little toys" we play with.

[DogOfWar]

You know, collecting Barbie dolls is also quite time consuming. Not to mention way more expensive than Warhammer. Even registration fees for their convention costs more than any Games Day events or Grand Tournaments:

http://www.barbieconvention.com/

They even have competitions as well. Making dioramas, clothes, etc. But despite all that, at it's core it's still a hobby of collecting dolls. Just like at it's core, despite whatever you do with and around it, playing Warhammer is still a hobby of moving around little army men on a table and going "pew pew you're dead."

And for the record, yes I still say "pew pew" for my guys with guns. As well as make angry monster sounds for any large beasties. I was doing it most recently with Rudy's dragon.

[Caledor The Dragonmaster]

You know, collecting Barbie dolls is also quite time consuming.

oh nnnNNOWWWWWwww I know where you took off to for a couple years. 

[DogOfWar]

Nah, only weirdos do Barbies.

I do My Little Ponys.

This is my most recent one:



The Butterfly Island Sunny Scent Pineapple Paradise Pony.

[johnnymaco]

Glad to see almost everyone had a good time next event we will try to tweak a few things and make it run more smoothly we will be using the new GW GT cards they are awsome.  I think they may also be used on the socal slaughter II but I might be wrong so do not quote me.  There will always be misunderstandings with regards to scoring on all parts and we will work to leave as much info out to the players as possible.

CLIFF  Sorry about the misunderstanding with perception of the event being run by you and the prize support.  I can say i reallly appreciate the time and effort you put into the gaming communtiy in SD and supporting this event and ones in the future.  Thanks