BSB and Herdstone

[ghoulking]

Wow, that turned ugly really quickly, eh?

I thought I might address a few things said over there.

1) Cliff never took credit nor claimed any sort of influence over the BSB.  Ever.  That was LA conspiracy nonsense, and it felt like Cliff got thrown under the bus in that thread.

2) Kurt, it read like you were getting very defensive in that thread, and while I don't blame you...there were some good suggestions.  I hope you don't overlook them.  I know you plan on using a multi-judge system in the future.  Good on you.  But I think you should also look at the idea of throwing out the judge's scores.  In fact, just use a letter grading system for the armies.  Fluffy bunny armies get an 'A' and play other fluffy bunny armies first round, and after that, the letter grades don't matter. 

3) Kurt, you said you weren't going to reveal the scores in the future...don't do that.  In that one little thread they claimed shenanigans at three different events.  Don't feed the conspiracy monkeys by obscuring scores at all (if you decide to keep the judge's scores).  You have to make the scoring as obvious and available as possible (excepting opponent's sportsmanship and comp scoring, of course).

4) Another area I heard grumblings about was Painting judging.  I heard a complaint or two that the judges were hyper critical.  That's just grumbling that I heard,  no need to respond to #4 cause it wasn't me.

5) Looking over the paint scoring system, it seems to me a bit vague.  I'd suggest adopting something similar to GW's GT judging system.  It breaks the scoring down by category very clearly.  I'm not saying take GW's system, but I think a judging system broken down by category would be a good one.  I don't know if the judges had a score sheet for each player, but I'd suggest doing that in the future.  That way if a player wants to know why they got a particular painting score the judge can look at the sheet and have answers.  I really think that for the painting category especially a judge should be available at the end of the tournament to discuss why each person got what they did and to suggest ways of improving the score in the future. 

6) I don't know what sort of time limitations you were under, but it very much felt like as soon as the scores were announced you wanted to be out of there as quickly as possible.  I can understand, but people wanted to know their scores and wanted to know why.  Next year I hope you'll at least post the scores on the wall for people...Kurt seemed a bit mobbed by people.

7)  Could you breakdown what was possible in each category for me? 
Painting: Judge scores +votes
Composition: 6+30   right?
Sportsmanship: 50+votes
Battle: 75+modifiers?

I'm obviously not clear about how much each vote counted for and the modifiers for Battle scores.
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[captkurt]

Almost all of the complaints were from people who did not attend the Bash and mostly did not even read the rules, even who seeming just made stuff up.

Next time we will be throwing out the judges comp scores.

So no need to reveal them, though I will let anyone know what thier own score was.

No one will ever be happy with any paint scoring, or any scoring system in general.  It was all published on the site and that was the criteria.  If we change it, it will still be published to the site.  Sadly people will grumble.

Painting score was 0-33, judges only

Comp was 0-36, judge and players, plus theme and appearance votes

Sports was 0-50, player score, plus opponent votes

Battle was 20-95ish.

We will have 2 scorerkeepers next year and will have points/table assignments posted between each battle, as well as at the end. 

Table assignments will be done via Swiss W-L-D system, using pairing software....no exceptions given for playing people you know and play all the time (that screwed up tons of pairings).  Names will be placed on the tables like reservation/seating assignment cards...so you just look for your name.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Brynjolfr]

I had no idea what was going on, or what forum it was, until this thread popped up; I spent the next 1/2 hour reading it.  There are things both good and bad about that thread, and it was locked for good reasons.

The big misunderstanding, as I saw it, is when six people scored all the comps, they thought it was five playing PacMads judging all the lists, and not as it was - five opponents and one non-playing judge.

[Qrab]

The person complaining the most has been grinding that ax since last year's Strategicon RTT. Having played in that tournament, I didn't see anything that supported the notion that the event was rigged (and even said as much). Weird.

[CK]

The positive posts here and elsewhere have outweighed the few negative posts on that forum. I'm sorry that the guys that didn't come had such a horrible time but the dudes and lady that did come out for the Broadside Bash seemed to have a pretty good time.

[Tadite]

My thoughts:

1.  The defense of Cliff should have been first and foremost.  In the nearly 6 years I've known him and the dozens of events and tournaments run by him or by his officers at GE I have never once had even the slightest thought to his integrity and to the detection he brings to the gaming community as a whole.  In fact one of the reasons that the BSB was the first GT that I've participated in is because I haven't trusted the organizations running them (both indy and GW although I've rethought that so I’ll be branching out a little in terms of GT's).  Cliff has done more to support the gaming community then any other group or individual in the region and as such deserves our support. 

Whatever went on at the old Strategicon seems to have been a massive massive misunderstanding.

2.  Secret Societies bring bad karma.  Anytime you have a club people are going to think you boost up your fellow club members.  This goes for the LA Groups, Inland Empire, San Diego, or the PMs.  People need to see as much as possible the inner workings or they are going to create conspiracies even if they don't exist.   

3.  I second Bob's idea of the A - C format of judges comp.  Parting of grading is taking as much subjectivity out of a grade as possible or taking importance.  By taking comp out of the equation for a win you will make your life easier. 

People are less likely to hold a grudge about something that is just used in pairings then about something that is used in rankings.

You never want a situation where people can say you gave a person a lower comp because you know he is a good player not because his army comp deserves it.  Or you gave a higher comp simply because you aren’t aware of how to build truly competitive armies.  Both arguments can be a little nasty.

[Mordante]

I want to comment, since it was probably some of my comments that might have made Cliff feel he was being thrown under the bus.

I have nothing against Cliff (other than the ass kicking he gave me in our game!     - I want a rematch!)  But considering the feelings of many outside the community and the misconception that he was running or judging the event, I felt it most important to clear up that issue, since it was not true, not to defend his credibility.  I heard that same claim from other sources, so I was planning to talk to Cliff about it next time I saw him, which will hopefully be tomorrow.  I don't want to accuse him of anything, especially not on a forum, especially when the rumors came from sources I really do not know.  But the question is worth asking, does he know where people were getting that idea from?  If he does not, well, no hard feelings, water under the bridge, hopefully we will be more clear at the next BSB or event we run who is running it and who is participating.

Cliff if you are reading this, feel free to call me at your leisure, or we can talk tomorrow.  I hope there are no hard feelings that I didn't jump to your defense on the Herdstone. 

[ghoulking]

Cliff never said he felt thrown under the bus, that was my impression from reading that thread.

As for the origins of some of those rumors...
-Cliff and his brother used to run the RTTs at those different cons up there. 
-Many of the LA people have the idea that all SD players are Pac Mods.  As an example, look at the SoCal Slaughter, most of the SD people were Pac Mods, and Chris and I rode up with a Pac Mod and were hanging out with the Pac Mods the entire weekend.  I was even asked by a couple people about the BSB as they thought that since I ran the SD RTTs I'd be involved in the Bash.  I always said my only involvement was that I was going to play in it and referred them to Pac Mods.  The LA folks just don't quite understand the diversity in SD's gaming scene.

[Caledor The Dragonmaster]

 

Thrown under a bus... PLEASE... more like thrown under the bus, backed up on, driven over again and then urinated on for good measure.


HOLY INSANITY SANTA!!!!!

Accusations of rigged tournies and PMs being unscrupulous fiends was just out of this world!!!! 

Ok some of those people need to grip on reality and join the rest of us here on earth. PHEW!!!! I haven't read so much BS ever in my life. Well maybe not, as from what I read those fellows at the Herd could write a good soap opera.

One of the interesting things was this josh character!!! I got to play a few tables from him twice, his opponents were in total ANGUISH!!! I remember one of the other Wood Elf players gaming with him, looking over at my game and saying," Holy crap, were on turn two, this is his 6th bathroom break, the guy stares at the table for most of it and the round is almost over...!!??!!" Of course its turn 6 for everyone else and I'm thinking to myself, THANK GOD I'M NOT PLAYING THAT DUDE!! Now after reading the HErdsite I read this guy has Autism which explains what was going. Wish someone had told organizers as perhaps they could have accommodated him some how and would have saved some people from crazy headaches!!!! The opponents had no CLUE!!!!  Would have made a ton of difference they had!!!!


Now this Quintin person is just WAY out of bounds with this "HATE" for Cliff. No doubt there is some personal issues in his life thats effecting him in a negative way. It seems Cliff is the scapegoat for this guys tragic life!! I mean really, those of you who have gotten to know Cliff "KNOW" it is not in his nature to be what this Quintin person contrived. In fact Cliff even posted on the Herdy Stone that he liked the guy, had no idea where this hate was coming from and offered to talk to him about it for some type of resolution!!!! Cliff has done so much for the gaming community and people just don't stop to think about that. I commend him for what he has given us gamers through hard work and a lot of sacrifice. I know I should have said this years ago, but I would like to state it now. " Thank you Cliff for what you have done and created here in San Diego, it is very much appreciated sir"

Unbelievable stuff I must say, just unbelievable folks!!!!

Mordante and Capin K were exemplary in their responses to the many ridiculous, outlandish, and down right insulting posts. PHEW! Let me tell ya folks, the A holes were flying about like bees to the honeycomb. Yet armed in truth and fairness our two fellows waded through the mire of foolishness and came out unscathed. I commend you two for the battle fought!!! (some of those people are just clueless and need professional help...REALLY)

[Fellblade]

Did I miss something or was all this going down on another board somewhere?

[Brynjolfr]

Another board.  I think it's a dedicated Fantasy Chaos Board like Ogre Kingdoms, or Tau Online.

[Qrab]

The Herdstone. Primarily a Beast of Chaos forum.

[Tadite]

This type of situation, I think, is best handled in a Warhammer League NOT a Tournament.  People need prior warning, or at least an explanation, before dealing with him.  Otherwise I think it is a imposition to tell someone who has taken a great deal of time out of their week (a couple guys flew in from all over the country) that 1 of the 5 games they payed for isn't going to be a game due to their opponents mental situation.  In a league you can work around it or at the very least as a group create an optimum situation. 

As a total stranger in a tournament all you know is that you get to play a aggressive guy, who gets angry quickly, with an incredibly unfun army, and you aren't going to get even half way through a game.   

I sat next to one of those games.  I was on turn 5 or 6 they hadn't gotten past 2.  The opponent had to ask after over 1 hour and half if he was going to get his turn 1. 

In another situation one of his opponents told him his soft scores.  The player always likes people to know what he gave them after it has gone to the judges so their isn't any problems down the line.  Josh became extremely agitated that he didn't get max scores and actually went to the judges to try to get his scoring sheet back to downgrade the scores he gave his opponent. 

This isn't a simple situation.

One of the interesting things was this josh character!!! I got to play a few tables from him twice, his opponents were in total ANGUISH!!! I remember one of the other Wood Elf players gaming with him, looking over at my game and saying," Holy crap, were on turn two, this is his 6th bathroom break, the guy stares at the table for most of it and the round is almost over...!!??!!" Of course its turn 6 for everyone else and I'm thinking to myself, THANK GOD I'M NOT PLAYING THAT DUDE!! Now after reading the HErdsite I read this guy has Autism which explains what was going. Wish someone had told organizers as perhaps they could have accommodated him some how and would have saved some people from crazy headaches!!!! The opponents had no CLUE!!!!  Would have made a ton of difference they had!!!!

[DarkBlood]

3.  I second Bob's idea of the A - C format of judges comp.  Parting of grading is taking as much subjectivity out of a grade as possible or taking importance.  By taking comp out of the equation for a win you will make your life easier. 

I sincerely hope it is not fully taken out of the equation.  Opponent comp scores are a great idea still. 

As for the other site, if they didn't play, ignore them.

[Brynjolfr]

I think he means the pairing-up comp scoring by the judges before the games start.