You Can Be My Wingman Anytime.

[Espa]

We're very likely to continue a campaign on the heels of this one in order to get enough time in for Aaron (deployment coming).

Greg's recent Fighta-bomma creation has spawned an interesting proposal of incorporating flyers into the campaigns.

For the most part the rules will stay the same, but a new idea is to have flyers as a Build-up option.  This would permit the use of a flyer.  You'd still need the model(WYSIWYG) and you'd need to use up the appropriate army slot and points cost and get the rules from FW.  Obviously, a converted model would be the most likely means of getting a flyer.

We'd also have an Airfield territory.  This would allow the controlling player to use a flyer in all battles (still following the rules above).

Anti-aircraft turrets would be added to the Fortify option.

We've never banned aircraft in any previous campaigns, but honestly, the issue never came up (no Elysians).  Forgeworld units (not Titan class [structure points]) have always been allowed and even I use Mr. Squigglesworth (squiggoth).

Mostly I'm wondering, what'dya guys think?

-I don't see flyers being a major issue, whether used by most of us or only a few.  Of course, I'm not exactly the expert on flyers.

J
 

[Sheepshagga]

We obviously need to playtest the flyer option.

-I'm all for having flyers, as the rules for them are simple and easy to understand.  As long as a player pays for the points and uses an appropriate FOC slot, then it should be fair.

-Having flyers available only during build-up and if you have the airport territory are great ideas.

-A list of pre-approved flyers should be made available, and if a player meets the criteria to field a flyer, then he can pick an appropriate flyer from that list (i.e... IG player picks a Lightning, Ork player takes the bomma, etc...).  Creating a list of appropriate aircraft will not be difficult as plenty of us have the Imperial Armor books and updates (I just got them all last night!).

-An appropriate model should represent the flyer as well.  Doesn't have to be the most perfect FW model, as long as it looks appropriate.  Hell, my bomma is a converted WWII German tank hunter using Anakin Skywalker's Pod engines.  If we adopt the flyer option, any Ork player who wishes to use my bomma can do so.

-An appropriate AA battery should have the following stats:  2 TL AA autocannons, S7 AP4, Heavy 2, BS2.  Not only are they good for countering flyers, but these guns can be targeted at ground targets as well. 

[GI_Joel]

I have no problem admiting flyers.  I do however think we should make a list of apropriate flyers.  No super Heavy flyers with lots of structure points like the Tau Manta or the eldar vampire. 

[Sheepshagga]

I agree, nothing with structure points, and probably nothing worth more than 240-250 points.  The armies are only at 2000 points.  Anything too expensive will never be used.

And I know there are several types of flyers for each race that fall into this price range; such as an IG Lightning or a Valkyrie; or an Ork fighta and Ork bomma. 

[Espa]

Structure points flyers will follow the same restriction as non-flyers with structure points...no bueno.

Greg - since you've got all the books...

...do you know if there would be any army with a disadvantage on point restriction?
...would armies such as the Elysians be forced not have access to all that's standard for them?

Before anyone asks, Elysians would be counted as a 'skimmer' army for map movement and I'm inclined to count any standard flyers in their list as outside the Flyer deployment restriction (need Build-up or Airfield).  Any non-standard flyers an Elysian would use would fall into the restrictions as the rest of us terrestrians.

J

[GI_Joel]

250 seems like a good points maximum.  The other flyers that need more points than that usually have multiple structure points.  The only flyers I would make an exception for would be the eldar nightwing. 

It costs 287 and It does not have any structure points.  It has eldar feilds which let it ignore a glancing hit on a 4+ and it is only armed with twin linked shuriken cannon and twin linked bright lance.

As far as I can see the List would go something like this

Eldar
Nightwing

Dark Eldar
Raven
Razorwing

Orks
bomba
fighta bomba

IG
Thunderbolt
Lightning
Valkyrie
Vulture
Arvus Lighter
Aquila Lander

Tau
Baracuda

Space Marines
Can use any of the IG aircraft, (too bad thunderhawks have structure points)

Chaos
Hell Tallon Fighter Bomber
Hell Blade Fighter

Nids
No aircraft, so sad

Necrons
No aircraft so sad

I would suggest that the races that do not have any aircraft such as the necrons can use the VDR to create one and get the stats approved by Jason and the fellow campaign players.

I would also say that you can only use aircraft if you have the air field, or you have build up. 

Anyway guys, now it is time to start modeling that aircraft.  I think Kurt already has some aircraft.  They may not be the best choice for our campaign missions because they cannot hold objectives but they sure will be fun to see on the field.

[Sheepshagga]

I suggest nothing that can carry troops (or at least eliminate that option).  That changes the game dynamics quite a bit. 

If we are going to pre-approve types of fighters, are we going to pre-make their ordnance layouts, or just tell the player "don't go above 250 points when you make your ord choices"?  I recommend we pre-approve not only the types of flyers, but their payloads as well.  Something like the vulture can have 2000 different load outs.  We can simplify a number of things, and others are already chosen for us:

Ork Bomma:  AV10, 3 TL big shootas, 2 rockets, 2 bombs, 2 Grot Bombs= 228 points.

I agree that those races without fighters can use VDR to create something and get the mass approval from the other players.  From what I hear, VDR went away for many reasons, one of which was because people were creating ultra-cheesy war machines.  First recommendation is AV no higher than 10, unless it's already GW approved (like the Vulture).

[GI_Joel]

I agree, no transports, I still would argue that Elysians would be the exception because their army list depends on flyers.

[Sheepshagga]

Using VDR, I played around with a Necron fighter/bomber.  For just under 250 points, I created a monster of a flyer for the Necrons.  Of course, we should offer a lesser armed fighter as well, just to go along with what the other races offer- at least two choices: one light, one heavy.

There are no options to create a Nid fighter, but I imagine we can use Imperial VDR rules and simply imagine that a S7 autocannon option is actually some sort of S7 Nid phlegm ball-  an acid loogie so to speak.  That's do-able.

[Espa]

Doesn't FW have a flying Nid?  Or is that a titan class?

[Sheepshagga]

From the books I've seen, many of the flying Nids have Mass Points, but even those that don't are considered heavy support choices that can fly (like jumpers)- they are not flyers in any sense of the word.  They would count as special monsters that rampage around the table.  I can play around with VDR and come up with 2 Nid Flyers- a heavy and light.

I created two AA batteries to go along with the flyer and AA gun supplemental rules.  I'll make sure to bring those every week during the new campaign in case someone wants to use it.  I'll also bring my flyer for other Ork players to use.  Now we just need to know if anyone else ever plans on using a flyer...

As for playtesting, Joel and I are going to hook up at GE on Tuesday after work.  We'll play out one of the campaign scenarios and utilize the bomma.

[Espa]

Guess we might have to make a legless bug...

I think it's great that you've taken the reigns to make sure the addition of flyers is well tested.

I suggest nothing that can carry troops (or at least eliminate that option).  That changes the game dynamics quite a bit.

Insert Quote
I agree, no transports, I still would argue that Elysians would be the exception because their army list depends on flyers.

I understand the caution, and definately think we need to see a flyer-transport in action against our missions.  However, I am inclined to permit flyer-transports since their costs in points likely outweighs their beneifits.  This is contingent upon playtesting, but I think that after having seen the Soul Drinkers struggle in our missions, I can't imagine flyer-transports being some unstoppable force.

Joel-Is it possible for you to toss in a valkyrie proxy in your playtest against Greg?

J

[Sheepshagga]

We'll take the flyer playtesting one step at a time.  We're going to playtest the basic flyer rules against a generic army list first, then step it up slowly.  Another mission will probably have him loaded up with AA mounts, then yet another battle might incorporate a transport.

There's always the possibility that someone will bring a transport during the upcoming megabattle.  We'll see how that goes, but as defenders, we are well gaurded against aerial attacks.  BS3 AA TL autocannons Heavy 4.  (4 S7 shots at 4+ to hit, then rerollable...  )  Not much is going to survive.  Anyway, I'll be taking copious mental notes of all the flyer activity on that day.  There are many lessons that are going to be learned.

I already know that the AA option we are going to (maybe) incorporate in the next campaign is toned down quite a bit:  BS2, 2 autocannons.  No TL, and standard 2 shots each.  So, 4 shots needing 5+ to hit.  Sounds adequate.  1 shot might hit, then needs a 3+ to glance.

[Sarpedon]

What do you mean struggle? The soul drinkers brought the wonderful pain like they always do. Cold and fast son

[Espa]

That's what I said.  The Soul Drinkers brought the wonderful pain like they always do...

1st Round:   No one on the board. (Cold) 
2nd Round:  1 squad on the board. (Cold)
3rd Round:   2 squads on the board.  One wiped. (Cold)
4th Round:   2 squads on the board.  Two wiped. (Cold)
5th Round:   What's left of army on the board.  (Cold) 
6th Round:   Army dead or running.  (Fast)

J